In this solo episode of ‘Don’t Cut Your Own Bangs,’ Danielle Ireland dives into key lessons from her recent therapy sessions, emphasizing the importance of relationships. She explores how the drive to ‘win’ an argument often results in everyone losing, the power of genuine apologies over hollow ones, and the significance of understanding rather than feigned confusion.
Danielle also shares personal insights and practical steps to navigate relationship conflicts with compassion and kindness, while promoting her journaling tool, ‘Treasured,’ aimed at deepening personal growth and self-awareness.
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DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW
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Blog: https://danielleireland.com/blog/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are listening to Don’t Cut Your Own Bangs Today. I am coming at you with a solo cast. These are so fun for me for many reasons. it’s like a living, breathing journal where I can process things that are happening in my life or things that I’ve learned with clients and therapy sessions or just new aha things or whatever’s really exciting for me.
[00:00:28] I get an opportunity to put those in a place. I have been having some really juicy, juicy therapy sessions with clients over the last couple weeks, and what I’ve started to do, There are moments when I’m in a session with a client and I’m taking notes or I’m listening to something they’re processing or something will fly outta my mouth, just improvised in the moment and I will think to myself, damn.
[00:00:52] That was a tasty dish that was really interesting or that was super poignant, or I get like full body chills and I don’t really know exactly what to do with the information, but I wanna put it somewhere. And so what has ended up happening over the years is I’ll scribble something on a post-it note or I’ll scratch something at the top of the client note to try to revisit later.
[00:01:15] Sometimes in previous lives I’ve written them into blog forms or just brought them up with my husband over dinner thinking this. And actually little sneak peek behind the curtain. That is one of the ways, one of the first ways that the title for wrestling a walrus came to me.
[00:01:34] It happened in a therapy session. I’m pretty sure I used it just as a way to iterate whatever the client was processing or experiencing in the moment. I wrote it down and it just stuck with me. And there’s lots of moments like that. And so what we’re gonna talk about today in this solo cast is lessons from sessions, but the ones that are really focused in on relationships.
[00:01:58] So this is the lessons from Sessions, relationship edition, solocast, and. The only thing that’s ever shared, in this podcast space is the.
[00:02:12] Lessons that are gleaned, the takeaways that we can all find value from in the human experience, not personal anecdotes, addresses, names, identifiable characteristics, nothing like that. The point is not to out anybody at all. One that would be terribly unethical and I would lose my license for it.
[00:02:32] But also just on a human level that feels ick. That feels really icky. I think that anybody who’s curious about therapy or anyone who is in therapy, but wondered what it would be like in someone else’s session. There is this innate curiosity of, is anyone else dealing with this too?
[00:02:48] Has anyone else ever thought this also, or what do you do when you face this? That is, I think, a healthy, normal, reasonable curiosity I love that there’s a place to share that. So yeah, we’re gonna talk about relationships. So winning or losing in the context of relationships, particularly in an argument, if the goal is to win or if, if the goal is to not lose.
[00:03:15] Depends on what side you’re on. Are you righteous or are you just digging your heels in and being stubborn? if you are fighting to win or doggedly. Preventing the feeling of loss. Somebody always loses, win or lose. Somebody always loses in that type of dynamic.
[00:03:33] So what happens when we do a fake apology? A hollow apology. And the last is the phrase I hear a lot. I just don’t understand. I just don’t understand. So we’re gonna talk about each of these, how they play out in relationships, what you might be able to find value from within them, where you may be able to see yourself in them.
[00:03:55] And I’ll also share where I see myself in these too. though I sit in a therapist chair when I’m actually working with clients. I do my own work. I’m human too, and we’re figuring this out together. So let’s start with. When it’s about winning or losing, you always lose. I think what gets lost in most heated exchanges, if we even peel back before the disagreement itself, there is a momentum.
[00:04:26] That leads to disagreements, whether a repeated pattern, a repeated behavior or a fight that we keep having over and over and over again. It’s never just isolated in that moment in time, there is a momentum that leads to it.
[00:04:43] The issue in the kitchen or the fight in the bedroom, or the feverishly upset text exchange, Thing that we are fighting for is to be heard or to feel validated or for the other person to give us something. Usually something in the context of, you are right, I was wrong.
[00:05:03] I see it your way. I will change and I will never do that thing that has led us to this moment that makes you uncomfortable ever, ever again. We’re looking for some kind of either validation or a guarantee, and some of that makes sense and some of that is. Just not. and it’s hard to know in that moment in time when we are flooded with feelings we’re escalating and two people have dug their heels in.
[00:05:30] It’s sometimes hard to see the woods through the trees, but. What I know to be absolutely true, having worked with couples who are actively fighting in front of me, which is not fun. It’s probably my least favorite experience working as a therapist. it really activates my nervous system, but also in my own fights and my own disagreements with my husband.
[00:05:52] For example, when I am fighting to prove myself right at his expense, the expense of his experience or his point of view. I will lose because I’m either going to say something hurtful to win or I’m not listening, so I’m not receiving any of the information he’s sharing. And also, once I’m that flooded and fighting to get my point of view across, I’m no longer in the environment, and I’m no longer sitting in front of my husband.
[00:06:21] I’m sitting across an enemy and I’m a battle. And once that happens, once that mode is activated. That’s when our worst qualities, our most destructive behaviors, can rise to the surface, and that erodes trust. it creates the opposite of really looking for, we’re looking to be heard, one of the things that can be helpful is to even just catch that you’re in it. am I trying to win or am I trying to understand something new? Am I trying to win or am I seeking to be heard? Am I trying to win? Meaning I need to be right.
[00:07:04] And because in order for me to be right, they have to be wrong. Now, there are of course times where there maybe is a clear cut right and wrong, but what I’m speaking about in this context is not physical altercations or the extremes that are a little more clearly discerned. It’s those. Muddy, messy, icky moments with someone that you actually care about or somebody who has a relationship that’s important to you.
[00:07:33] ’cause maybe it’s not always a spouse or a romantic partner. it could be a friend or could be a family member. It could even be a coworker, but they’re not a villain. They’re not evil. But that is also sometimes a trick that our mind will play on us when we are fighting so hard to win, is we’ll make the other person an enemy and we’ll convince ourselves a story about them
[00:07:53] Whatever our mode of operating makes sense to us, but what you can do is if you catch yourself in that place, you’re like, oh, the warrior, the Warrior’s armors on, and I am trying to win. This is, by the way, the hardest thing for me to do. Anytime because whenever there is unease, unrest, discomfort in a relationship, my need to fix or my need to get to a resolution quickly is so strong.
[00:08:26] One of the best things you can do is pause the conversation, pause and walk away for a little bit. if like me, you have that hypervigilance that that need for resolution, that need to care take. Or if you are a justice seeking person, you’re like, I will fight the good fight.
[00:08:46] This is going to be really freaking hard. but I absolutely know. Based on the science, based on what is happening in our brains, what’s happening in our nervous system, when we are engaged in an interaction like that, win or lose, you’re gonna lose. So the best thing you can do when you catch it, even if it’s mid-sentence, is to, and I’ll actually do this, I’ll do something, I’ll do a gesture with my hands.
[00:09:13] Like I’ll throw up my hands like this, like, woo, I need, I need to stop. Or I’ll do a timeout, hand signal. But I’ll take a breath. I’ll pump the brakes. Literally and metaphorically, I’ll pump the brakes on the conversation and I need to pause and take a beat. There’s actually a really common thread that I’ve, clients have told me about and I’ve actually experienced in my own life.
[00:09:38] many times. I’ll get off of a heated phone call and I’ll hang up, and then a few minutes will go by. something will soften or a new thought will come to me, or I’ll have a moment of clarity, or I’ll start to feel contrite and maybe a little guilty at something at how I said something or what I said, and I’ll actually have a better opportunity to reconnect through sending a text.
[00:10:05] Now, I’m not a fan of text fighting or avoiding actual connection through text, but there is this phenomenon of. I have to stop the chain of events. That’s un that’s gaining momentum that I have. I’m losing control and I’m fighting hard to win. And I press pause and I stop and I breathe and I reflect
[00:10:28] And then I’m seeing things in a different way. And then the act of texting. Is not to avoid the deeper connection, but I think there is something to, similar to why I love journaling. I’m thinking about what I’m writing and I’m thinking about what I’m sending. And generally that is either an apology or a more well-formed thought or a clarifying statement or a question that helps reframe.
[00:10:56] There is something about step out of the game. If you catch yourself in this like pickleball match of like point, counterpoint, point, counterpoint, point, counterpoint, you’re just trying so hard to win.
[00:11:08] Step outta the game. So the pause is not abandoning the other person or abandoning the topic altogether, or it’s not avoiding it. But I need to get out of this. The rules and the context of this game win or lose. I’m gonna step out. I’m gonna breathe and, you know, you’re in a better place to reapproach the conversation when I come back online.
[00:11:31] That’s the language I use. it’s hard to articulate into words ’cause it’s a full body experience, The more I am caught in winning or losing or making somebody wrong, my focus becomes really narrow and I only see the examples. I only see the points that prove my perspective. Right? When I step out of the game and I breathe,
[00:11:57] I come back to the present moment. from that perspective, I’m able to actually see the context of a broader frame of reference, and that opens up the conversation to better possibilities that are less corrosive and less draining.
[00:12:15] So the takeaway from there, if you are fighting to win or lose, you will always lose. There is a better way to do it and my recommendation is to pause, step outta the game, breathe, reframe, and only reenter back into that interaction. When you feel yourself come back online. if you are in a relationship with a partner where you were the one choosing to step away and they.
[00:12:40] Have an anxious attachment style or they are maybe more like me in this example where they’re like, but they need, they need, they need to resolve.
[00:12:47] So letting them know that I’m not walking away from you and I’m not avoiding us coming to. A resolution together, but now is not the time for me and I can’t be my best me and do this. So depending on who you are and where you fall in each dynamic, it can be helpful to sometimes tend to that. If you have a partner that is a little bit more anxious attachedIf you’ve ever wanted to start a journaling practice but didn’t know where to start, or if you’ve been journaling off and on your whole life, but you’re like, I wanna take this work deeper, I’ve got you covered. I’ve written a journal called Treasured, a Journal for unearthing you. It’s broken down into seven key areas of your life, filled with stories, sentence stems, prompts, questions, and exercises.
[00:13:28] All rooted in the work that I do with actual clients in my therapy sessions. I have given these examples to clients in sessions as homework, and they come back with insights that allow us to do such incredible work. This is something you can do in the privacy of your own home, whether you’re in therapy or not.
[00:13:47] It has context, it has guides. And hopefully some safety bumpers to help digging a little deeper feel possible, accessible and safe. You don’t have to do this alone. And there’s also a guided treasured meditation series that accompanies each section in the journal to help ease you into the processing state.
[00:14:06] So my hope is to help guide you into feeling more secure with the most important relationship in your life, the one between you and you. Hop on over to the show notes and grab your copy today. And now back to the episode.
[00:14:19] When I am, sorry. Falls flat. Ooh, there is nothing. Well, okay, maybe there are other things. It really bothers me when there is a hollow, like a chocolate Easter bunny empty on the inside. I’m sorry. There are so many ways that repair is done wrong, and I think a lot of what though, these fake or hollow apologies feel rooted in.
[00:14:49] It’s an apology in sheep’s clothing. we want a guarantee. If I just knew the right words, if I just knew the script, if I just said the right thing, then I could hijack all of the awkward, uncomfortable, vulnerable conversations that I don’t wanna have. I don’t actually have to feel any of the sticky, icky, uncomfortable feelings that.
[00:15:10] Are involved in making amends, taking responsibility, because once I know something, I can’t unknow it. And if I know something and I can’t unknow it, then I might need to change. And change is uncomfortable and change is hard. if I just repeat the script, then I can just skip all that crap and get right to the fun part, which is, you know, avoiding discomfort altogether.
[00:15:33] I’m sorry, but, or there’s a good rule of thumb that whatever comes after, but is what you really mean. So if you find yourself either hearing or saying, I’m sorry, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I’m gonna tell you the, I’m sorry you just said was total bullshit and what you actually think and feel and what you mean is what comes after.
[00:15:56] But there are so many ways that we say the words, but we don’t mean the words. And so sometimes what I recommend to couples is to just swipe it from your vocabulary altogether. Because a lot of the time what we’re looking for in place of an apology of atonement is acknowledgement. I see the impact my behavior had on you.
[00:16:24] I see the effect that the way that I said what I just said, I can hear it now through your ears because you just shared. Your history, that experience you had when you were young, or you told me about the type of day you just had. I can now hear how that joke I thought was a joke or that comment that kind of came out sideways, or the fact that I’m frustrated and impatient I can now hear in a new way.
[00:16:52] I have a new frame of reference. I have a new context because of what you shared, and I really appreciate you telling me that’s not an apology, Fuck is that more powerful than so many times where we say, oh, I’m sorry, because I am sorry. Just, I’m sorry. I thought I was just making a joke.
[00:17:11] Be discerning about your apologies. And also I think a really important question to ask that I will share with clients all the time.
[00:17:24] Does the situation really call for an apology or is what the other person, or what you asking for is. Clarity and confirmation that your feelings matter. That your experience is real. And most of the time that is what we really are looking for. And that is enough Hollow chocolate bunny Apologies. Can Well, they can, they can get out ’cause I’m over ’em.
[00:17:54] and I just don’t understand. Oh. I just don’t understand the faux helplessness, the performed confusion that a lot of us do. This one I find fun because when we are confused. Then we can’t really make a choice.
[00:18:19] And if we can’t really make a choice because we don’t really understand something, then guess what else we don’t have to do. We don’t have to change. And so a lot of times I will be working with a client who is either in a relationship with someone who is conveniently confused or they themselves. Are maybe not ready to know what they’re on the cusp of knowing, or they’re not ready to acknowledge what they already know.
[00:18:46] There’s all these different stages of readiness when it comes to making change, because change is hard and it’s scary and it’s uncomfortable, but this helpless confusion, I just don’t understand. This is my favorite follow up question to that, and I empower you to use it. Just be ready for it though, because you can also use it on yourself.
[00:19:10] I just don’t understand. Do you want to, do you want to? Oof. I love that so much. Do you wanna understand, so just imagine you’re having a conversation with you don’t understand. Would you like to, because I’m happy to explain why it matters to me, because this is , the beauty and the really challenging part about emotional awareness . once we become aware. We can’t unsee. If I don’t know, then I’m gonna just keep doing what I’ve always done. But if I know I’m now presented with a choice that maybe I didn’t have before, but now I have a choice and my choice is to either do the same thing pretending I don’t know, or I’m gonna do the same thing, knowing full well and still choosing to do the same thing.
[00:20:12] But it’s a choice. It’s not this helpless foe. I’m just lost and confused. I can’t possibly be held accountable. Oh, record scratch. You do know now, and it’s a real clarifying moment for an individual or for a relationship or for a job. Once I know what I know, I can’t unknow it.
[00:20:36] Now I’m being called to do something with this knowing, and sometimes that’s a scary leap. The example that’s actually coming to mind as I’m sharing this is I knew but wasn’t ready to know for six months that I was ready to go out on my own and leave the practice. That helped me develop as a therapist and launch out on my own.
[00:20:59] I knew for about six months that. I could afford it, that I was capable, that I had all of the resources I needed to make this happen. But I was scared to take the leap because change is hard. The unknown is uncertain and scary, and it’s a new environment and new and scary, and it is just all, all the reasons why we may be avoid doing anything that’s new.
[00:21:24] But I knew and needed to be confused and then reminded and confused, and reminded and confused and reminded until I couldn’t ignore what I knew anymore. And then I acted on it. And I think sometimes too , to wash this all with a, a big dose of compassion. I also think that a lot of times that that.
[00:21:47] Knowing, not being ready to know, knowing not being ready to know is its own form of preparation. Like maybe what we see on the outside is procrastination is its own form of preparing. Getting ready to be ready, to be ready to change,
[00:22:04] wherever you see yourself or your relationship or someone in your life in this process, I hope. That this has been clarifying. I hope you found some value in it or maybe sparked a fun conversation that we can continue to have. I welcome questions. I want your questions and I would love to be able to answer them for you here.
[00:22:23] You can always email me at da******@da*************.com. I am the only person who has access to that email, so I’ll be the person that receives it. So hit me up with a follow up question. If you want me to expand on a topic or if you have a new one that you’re curious about, let me know.
[00:22:38] The thing I wanna leave, whether it’s about winning or losing, or whether it’s about when Hollow chocolate bunny bullshit apologies or being fake confused about something. If there was a way that we could simplify, well, okay, what do you actually do with this?
[00:22:55] The first is breathe. The first will always be breathing. Because the breath is what allows all of the important problem solving parts of our brain that kick offline when we’re absolutely flooded with emotion or in terror or thrown back to our 8-year-old emotional selves. Breath brings us back. So breathe.
[00:23:19] I love doing this next step. I will think of myself or imagine myself as somewhere between like five and eight years old, but I think of little Danielle.
[00:23:29] And then whenever I’m in conflict or mentally struggling with or taking issue with anyone, truly any other person, I will then imagine them as little them. So there’s little Danielle and there’s little them, and it softens me because one, the reality is we go back to an emotional age wherever, whenever we are flooded with emotion, the experience is exceeding our capacity to meet the moment.
[00:24:01] And this is not a judgment, it’s just a truth that when we get overwhelmed or flooded or have an adult tantrum or lose our temper emotions are seeping out our eyes, right? Whatever the expression is, the emotion of the moment is exceeding our capacity to meet it. Breath helps us kick back online and then remembering, oh, this is little me not knowing how to meet this moment.
[00:24:25] And she’s doing the best she can do. And then there’s also a little version of this other person. Who is likely having the exact same experience in their own way, and it doesn’t excuse behavior and it doesn’t excuse mine, especially if I step outside the bounds of what’s respectful. But to meet the moment with kindness and truth, doing that with compassion, with respect to what’s likely happening inside me and likely happening inside the other, just really adds a nice, soft, cozy touch to the whole context.
[00:25:00] Don’t worry about a goddamn script. I’ve spent way too much time with clients, particularly in my early years, trying to craft the right thing to say. And I gotta say that those scripts will fail you when you’re actually in the moment. Sentence stems can help. And maybe if you need a point of reference to launch into a well-worded email or text, but when you’re speaking from the heart, it’s gonna be the right thing.
[00:25:25] But you won’t be able to access that if you’re not breathing. Disarm yourself, disarm the other. You’re not enemies. You’re not fighting. No one is trying to win or lose. And then say what you really feel and mean what you’re saying. you’ll know that it’s the truth when it’s also delivered with kindness.
[00:25:48] Because what I absolutely believe to be true. A belief being just something you think a lot, and I think this a lot, that the truth can always be delivered with kindness. It doesn’t mean it’s gonna be comfy, cozy, it doesn’t mean it’s gonna be easy, and it doesn’t mean the other person’s going to like it, but it can absolutely is kind.
[00:26:07] The truth is kind. So breathe, trust yourself, disarm yourself in the other. And try to do it with as much kindness as you can access.
[00:26:20] I wanna hear from you. I wanna know what you think. I want to answer your questions, and I want to grow and get better with you. So before you leave, make sure to check out the show notes, all of the important links for my children’s book, wrestling, a Walrus, my journal, treasure, a Journal for unearthing you, my website, all the fun ways you can connect with me.
[00:26:40] They are there for you in the show notes. Make sure to check those out and write, review, subscribe to the podcast. Those three things are like the 1, 2, 3 power punch that help this podcast meet other people who can get value from it. The best things in life are shared, so please share and I hope you continue to have a wonderful day.
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